Transgender women are women, says Mark Drakeford

The first minister of Wales has said he believes "transgender women are women".

Mark Drakeford was asked to define what a woman is during a session at the Senedd.

Mr Drakeford was answering a question about the inclusion of trans athletes in sport, acknowledging it was an "argument that divides people".

Prime Minister Boris Johnson does not believe transgender women should compete in female sports - a view he conceded may be "controversial".

There has been criticism of the UK Labour party's policies on trans and women's rights and the refusal of some politicians to publicly define what a woman is.

In the Senedd on Tuesday, Conservative MS Laura Anne Jones said: "I think it's important that I make it clear that protecting women's rights does not for one moment mean that you're anti-trans rights. Female competitors deserve the same rights as male competitors.

"We all know the huge benefits that sports can offer, and we all, I'm sure, want to ensure trans athletes can participate in sport.

"But what we don't want is a situation where we're trying to be so inclusive that it is to the detriment of a particular group.

"We have a situation where women athletes are so disheartened that they are pulling out of their own female categories because they say that trans women taking part in a female category have a male puberty advantage."

'Understanding rather than conflict'

The issue of transgender athletes - centred around the balance of inclusion, sporting fairness and safety in women's sport - has recently focused on the case of transgender cyclist Emily Bridges.

Bridges was recently ruled ineligible to compete in her first elite women's race by cycling's world governing body.

South Wales East Ms Jones asked Mr Drakeford: "First minister, do you believe that trans athletes should compete in female sports?

"Can you do something that many other Labour politicians have failed to do so far, which is define a woman?"

Mr Drakeford said: "My starting point is the same as Penny Mordaunt's - the UK minister responsible at the time - who said that the UK government's starting point was that transgender women are women. That's my starting point in this debate.

"It is a difficult area where people feel very strongly on different sides of an argument, and an argument that divides people who agree on most other things.

"What I say to the member is that in such a potentially divisive issue, the responsibility of elected representatives is not to stand on the certainties of their own convictions, but instead to work hard to look for opportunities for dialogue, to find ways of promoting understanding rather than conflict, and to demonstrate respect rather than to look for exclusion.

"I do not understand the point that the member makes that you can be too inclusive. To me, inclusivity is absolutely what we should be aiming for here."

In March, Lia Thomas became the first known transgender swimmer to win the highest US national college title with victory in the women's 500-yard freestyle.

She said athletes did not transition to gain a competitive advantage.

Mr Johnson said recently: "I don't think biological males should be competing in female sporting events. Maybe that's a controversial thing to say, but it just seems to me to be sensible.

"I also happen to think that women should have spaces - whether it's in hospitals, prison or changing rooms - which are dedicated to women. That's as far as my thinking has developed on this issue.

"If that puts me in conflict with some others, then we have got to work it all out. It doesn't mean I'm not immensely sympathetic to people who want to change gender, to transition and it's vital we give people the maximum love and support in making those decisions.

"These are complex issues and they can't be solved with one swift, easy piece of legislation. It takes a lot of thought to get this right."