Morality and Redemption in Soap

BertypopBertypop Posts: 4,230
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I've been thinking about this on and off for a while, but the storyline with Lewis and Ben in EE has raised it to the top of my thoughts again.

In EastEnders (and possibly in other British soaps, but I only watch EE), we have multiple murderers wandering around - and as viewers we're expected to have forgiven them and moved on.

Yet, it seems there are some crimes worse than murder - I'm thinking particularly of sexual assault and violence against women.

There was a moment in the Gray storyline where I thought they might try and redeem Gray and change him as a character with counselling - a potentially fascinating opportunity to get to the bottom of why some men are actually like this, and explore whether or not they can change, or will always be violent towards women. Yet, once Gray's domestic violence story resulted in the death of Chantelle, it was clear that he was beyond redemption, and the character had a shelf life

Yet, Ben killed Heather, and has been able to continue as a prominent character. Stacey killed Archie, same result. Janine has a fairly high body count and yet, we love her.

I should clarify, I'm not saying that domestic violence and sexual assault are minor offences - but I wonder what kind of message soaps are sending out to both victims and perpetrators of these kinds of crime. Are they really irredeemable? Are these people intrinsically evil and worse than murderers? Or, in the real world, can people change and come back from having committed such awful acts.

I'd be curious to see a show like EastEnders go down the route of exploring a redemptive arc for a character like this, and whether or not people around them can actually forgive and forget.

Or do you think we'll never see that and soaps will always have some crimes that the characters simply can't come back from?
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  • Aaron_SilverAaron_Silver Posts: 32,993
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    Interesting OP, I would say it's very difficult to come back from rape or sexual assault, murder on the other hand is anything from self-defence to morality judgement as with Stacey. There's no forgiving rape imo.
  • BertypopBertypop Posts: 4,230
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    Interesting OP, I would say it's very difficult to come back from rape or sexual assault, murder on the other hand is anything from self-defence to morality judgement as with Stacey. There's no forgiving rape imo.

    Perhaps that's the difference? Rape/Sexual assault isn't a grey area, where I guess murder can be as with the case of both Stacey and Ben.

    In the case of Gray, though... If his only murder had been that of Kush, a brutal callous murder, then the show would still have found a way to redeem him. Lucas is another case in point - an actual serial killer that the show brought back and tried to make us feel some kind of sympathy for/gave a redemptive arc.

    I find it odd though, that in regards to soap murder is seen as a lesser crime than certain others.
  • GizoGizo Posts: 4,181
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    edited 21/05/22 - 06:11 #4
    It’s interesting discussion. I personally try to avoid ethics as much as possible when it comes to soaps or TV shows in general, given that we're ultimately talking about escapism, and fictional characters and fictional actions, but it can be difficult. I guess for me the worst crime that a character can commit is being boring, so if I find them entertaining let them cause as much havoc as possible, but if I find them boring lock them up and throw away the key.

    My favourite soap character in recent times has been a remorseless serial killer, after also liking several other killers / serial killers in the past such as Richard Hillman, Cameron Murray etc. I laughed at hysterical comments I read elsewhere, saying that it was 'sick' or 'depraved' for me like a fictional serial killer, whose kills and actions were about as real as mine when I played Grand Theft Auto in the past.

    However I was thinking that on one hand it would be strange for me to shrug off or joke about Meena did in Emmerdale, with also wishing that she'd gone further and wiped out half the village with Chas and David top of the list, but simultaneously have a huge issue with what the likes of Cain and Noah have done, which while very bad of course pale in comparison.

    But then again on the flipside when it comes to serial killers and certainly if we ignore Hollyoaks which has been farcical in that department, we know early on that they have a limited shelf life and will eventually be arrested and imprisoned and / or killed. When it comes to established, long-term characters that are part of the furniture, I guess it's easy to judge their 'lesser' actions and crimes more harshly, because we know that there's a strong chance that they will not receive much comeuppance, which has definitely been true in Cain's case. Even if they are banged up, there's a good chance that they'll be released after a comically short period of time, with them and other characters quickly acting as if nothing happened.
  • tfox6tfox6 Posts: 2,938
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    There are some tabu offenses in soap, such as rape, and others that seem to be open to interpretation. I think that it depends on the actor. Some character arcs planned and other seem to develop organically. Caine Phillips in H&A is a good example of a character who did commit rape but was later 'redeemed' through his relationship with his victims sister. It was quite a controversial story for a daytime Australian soap of the time.
  • tfox6tfox6 Posts: 2,938
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    edited 21/05/22 - 06:26 #6
    There are some tabu offenses in soap, such as rape, and others that seem to be open to interpretation. I think that it depends partly on the ability of the actor. Some character arcs are planned and others appear to develop organically. Caine Phillips in H&A is a good example of a character who did commit rape but was later 'redeemed' through his relationship with his victim's sister, with whom he later had a child. Although they later split up, Cain and Kirsty's relationship was portrayed as a love story with forbidden elements. It was quite a controversial story for a daytime Australian soap of the time.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
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    Not to mention Ben's human trafficking women into probably years of sexual abuse. This was not done in self defense and was planned. And yet here we are.
  • ss147ss147 Posts: 1,608
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    Rape seems to be the only crime they think is irredeemable.
  • Fox_CraneFox_Crane Posts: 409
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    I'm not sure about UK soaps, but on some American soaps, they've previously redeemed rapists by turning the despicable act into what viewers end up calling "rapemance." The most (in)famous example of this being "supercouple" Luke and Laura from "General Hospital." More recent examples would be EJ DiMera and Sami Brady on "Days of Our Lives," and the situation on "The Young & the Restless" where longtime "hero" Paul Williams seemingly raped his his ex-wife, Christine, because he was enraged over her planned marriage to Michael Baldwin - who coincidentally had tried to rape Christine himself about a decade earlier, yet they were now planning a future together. Eventually, Paul and Christine remarried themselves. An example of rapemance from prime time soaps would be Adam Carrington and Kirby Anders on "Dynasty."

    Has this trope been played in the UK?

    Also, I know the lead character of Tddd Manning on "One Life to Live" was a rapist (the gang rape of Marty Saybrooke), but don't know enough about the show to explain how they redeemed him enough to keep his character on the show for another 20 years until it went off the air. If interested, there's an entire Wikipedia article about this rape saga with these two characters. Similarly, Roger Thorpe on "Guiding Light" was a very popular character who not only raped Rita Stapleton, but there was also the case of marital rape when he assaulted his own wife, Holly. With that one, Holly eventually shot Roger and he was presumed dead, but he faked it, and they eventually wrote the character back in. From what I've picked up, I believe both Todd and Roger are seen as very comp[ex anti-heroes who were always seeking redemption. In any event, I think they'd easily be termed fan favorites, played by dynamic, award-winning actors.

    In any event, I don't think a lot of these stories would play today.

  • owen10owen10 Posts: 127,909
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    edited 21/05/22 - 20:46 #10
    What about Tracy Barlow. She killed a man in cold blood which was pre meditated and only spends a few years in prison because she was released on a techicality. And the viewers forgave her even though she committed murder. But there are a few like myself who will never forget what she did and certainly wont forgive her as she took someones life. So i dont know how they managed to redeem the character when we all know what she did
  • GardenaGardena Posts: 8,602
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    Bertypop wrote: »
    Yet, Ben killed Heather, and has been able to continue as a prominent character. Stacey killed Archie, same result. Janine has a fairly high body count and yet, we love her.

    Ben is the one character who isn't ever allowed to move on from his bad deeds the way other are . Nobody is running around the square reminding Stacey and everyone else that she murdered someone . With Janine it's camp fun and he should habe worn slip on shoes . Bobby had his secondary victim Max becoming his cheerleader and an entire story arc about ghost Lucy . With Ben you get an endless list of all his misdeeds everytime the character is doing something, anything really .
  • owen10owen10 Posts: 127,909
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    Gardena wrote: »
    Bertypop wrote: »
    Yet, Ben killed Heather, and has been able to continue as a prominent character. Stacey killed Archie, same result. Janine has a fairly high body count and yet, we love her.

    Ben is the one character who isn't ever allowed to move on from his bad deeds the way other are . Nobody is running around the square reminding Stacey and everyone else that she murdered someone . With Janine it's camp fun and he should habe worn slip on shoes . Bobby had his secondary victim Max becoming his cheerleader and an entire story arc about ghost Lucy . With Ben you get an endless list of all his misdeeds everytime the character is doing something, anything really .

    It is shocking how Bobby is now redeemed when he wanted to hurt Lucy as that is why he was carrying the jewellery box. He also wanted to kill Jane as that is why he was holding a hockey stick. Do people actually know how dangerous he is
  • StreetFanStreetFan Posts: 729
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    owen10 wrote: »
    What about Tracy Barlow. She killed a man in cold blood which was pre meditated and only spends a few years in prison because she was released on a techicality. And the viewers forgave her even though she committed murder. But there are a few like myself who will never forget what she did and certainly wont forgive her as she took someones life. So i dont know how they managed to redeem the character when we all know what she did

    It's true. Killing someone in cold blood is the worst thing anyone could ever do,but in soap it's often treated as camp fun. There's definitely a double standard at play here.

  • Joe_H11Joe_H11 Posts: 5,620
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    Lachlan sexually assaulted alesha in emmerdale and he stayed on the show for a number of years later.
  • Joe_H11Joe_H11 Posts: 5,620
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    On neighbours we had Finn Kelly - he was a vile man, I don't think he killed anyone but he tried to bomb the school ect.

    Lost his memory in an accident and Susan forgive him and moved him in, the whole street was affected by this and they all had to learn to come to terms with him being there.

    He then got his memory back and turned killer again
  • tfox6tfox6 Posts: 2,938
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    owen10 wrote: »
    Gardena wrote: »
    Bertypop wrote: »
    Yet, Ben killed Heather, and has been able to continue as a prominent character. Stacey killed Archie, same result. Janine has a fairly high body count and yet, we love her.

    Ben is the one character who isn't ever allowed to move on from his bad deeds the way other are . Nobody is running around the square reminding Stacey and everyone else that she murdered someone . With Janine it's camp fun and he should habe worn slip on shoes . Bobby had his secondary victim Max becoming his cheerleader and an entire story arc about ghost Lucy . With Ben you get an endless list of all his misdeeds everytime the character is doing something, anything really .

    It is shocking how Bobby is now redeemed when he wanted to hurt Lucy as that is why he was carrying the jewellery box. He also wanted to kill Jane as that is why he was holding a hockey stick. Do people actually know how dangerous he is

    I never bought into Bobby being the murderer. It seemed like an afterthought on the part of the writers, a disposable character played by a new child actor who would not be missed in the same way as the other 'suspects' when he inevitably left the show. By contrast, I like the direction the writing team have taken Bobby since Clay Milner Russell took over the role.
  • Baldy_82Baldy_82 Posts: 1,241
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    owen10 wrote: »
    Gardena wrote: »
    Bertypop wrote: »
    Yet, Ben killed Heather, and has been able to continue as a prominent character. Stacey killed Archie, same result. Janine has a fairly high body count and yet, we love her.

    Ben is the one character who isn't ever allowed to move on from his bad deeds the way other are . Nobody is running around the square reminding Stacey and everyone else that she murdered someone . With Janine it's camp fun and he should habe worn slip on shoes . Bobby had his secondary victim Max becoming his cheerleader and an entire story arc about ghost Lucy . With Ben you get an endless list of all his misdeeds everytime the character is doing something, anything really .

    It is shocking how Bobby is now redeemed when he wanted to hurt Lucy as that is why he was carrying the jewellery box. He also wanted to kill Jane as that is why he was holding a hockey stick. Do people actually know how dangerous he is

    Bobby is about as dangerous as a paper cut. Plus, he feels guilt and shame for what he did. While nothing he ever does can make up for what he did to Lucy and Jane. At least he's trying to be a good person going forward, and so far he has been.
  • Baldy_82Baldy_82 Posts: 1,241
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    Even after killing Chantelle, Gray could have been redeemed. If he handed himself in to the police and faced the consequences of his actions, and got help while inside. But then he murdered Tina and Kush, and redemption became impossible as we realised he is a sociopath.

    Ben is totally ruined. I think giving him a rape story is wrong. Because I think many people will struggle to feel sympathy for him. Now I'm not saying he deserves it, as no one does. But I think the viewers will struggle with this storyline going forward.
  • persipersi Posts: 21,689
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    Nice_Craig wrote: »
    owen10 wrote: »
    Gardena wrote: »
    Bertypop wrote: »
    Yet, Ben killed Heather, and has been able to continue as a prominent character. Stacey killed Archie, same result. Janine has a fairly high body count and yet, we love her.

    Ben is the one character who isn't ever allowed to move on from his bad deeds the way other are . Nobody is running around the square reminding Stacey and everyone else that she murdered someone . With Janine it's camp fun and he should habe worn slip on shoes . Bobby had his secondary victim Max becoming his cheerleader and an entire story arc about ghost Lucy . With Ben you get an endless list of all his misdeeds everytime the character is doing something, anything really .

    It is shocking how Bobby is now redeemed when he wanted to hurt Lucy as that is why he was carrying the jewellery box. He also wanted to kill Jane as that is why he was holding a hockey stick. Do people actually know how dangerous he is

    Bobby is about as dangerous as a paper cut. Plus, he feels guilt and shame for what he did. While nothing he ever does can make up for what he did to Lucy and Jane. At least he's trying to be a good person going forward, and so far he has been.

    I love Bobby but he does still have a bit of a temper at times - does anyone else remember him lashing out at Denny in the run-up to the boat crash? It doesn't come up often and he's obviously working really hard to manage his emotions, but I wouldn't rule out him being violent again in the future.
  • persipersi Posts: 21,689
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    Joe_H11 wrote: »
    Lachlan sexually assaulted alesha in emmerdale and he stayed on the show for a number of years later.

    I'm not sure Lachlan was redeemed though. He was always a creep - he was super weird with Belle in his first scene, and we were told that the reason the Whites moved in the first place was because he'd been stalking a girl. He had a long shelf-life because of his age, but I think he was always a villain.
  • Shinealight12Shinealight12 Posts: 2,660
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    persi wrote: »
    Joe_H11 wrote: »
    Lachlan sexually assaulted alesha in emmerdale and he stayed on the show for a number of years later.

    I'm not sure Lachlan was redeemed though. He was always a creep - he was super weird with Belle in his first scene, and we were told that the reason the Whites moved in the first place was because he'd been stalking a girl. He had a long shelf-life because of his age, but I think he was always a villain.

    From what I remember he wasn't even all that apologetic about assaulting Alesha, not for the longest time. I think there may have been a period when he was dating Belle when it seemed like they were trying to redeem him but then he became a murderer.
  • owen10owen10 Posts: 127,909
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    edited 22/05/22 - 10:25 #22
    I think if any character in soap who turns to religion showing that they want to become a good person then there is a better chance of them being redeemed like Bobby Beale
  • Brummie Girl Brummie Girl Posts: 22,681
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    owen10 wrote: »
    I think if any character in soap who turns to religion showing that they want to become a good person then there is a better chance of them being redeemed

    Lucas in EE was a religious character. Religion didn’t redeem him
  • owen10owen10 Posts: 127,909
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    edited 22/05/22 - 10:27 #24
    owen10 wrote: »
    I think if any character in soap who turns to religion showing that they want to become a good person then there is a better chance of them being redeemed

    Lucas in EE was a religious character. Religion didn’t redeem him

    Well he was on the road to redemption but the producers could not help themselves and decided that he must not be redeemed
  • QueenshazzaQueenshazza Posts: 2,518
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    Gardena wrote: »
    Bertypop wrote: »
    Yet, Ben killed Heather, and has been able to continue as a prominent character. Stacey killed Archie, same result. Janine has a fairly high body count and yet, we love her.

    Ben is the one character who isn't ever allowed to move on from his bad deeds the way other are . Nobody is running around the square reminding Stacey and everyone else that she murdered someone . With Janine it's camp fun and he should habe worn slip on shoes . Bobby had his secondary victim Max becoming his cheerleader and an entire story arc about ghost Lucy . With Ben you get an endless list of all his misdeeds everytime the character is doing something, anything really .

    The thing with Ben, is that he does horrible things and just doesn’t care and then expects everyone to feel sorry for him
    When things mess up. Stacey has kind of owned up to it all and does try and be a good person (and her killing Archie, whether rightly or wrongly, was her killing her rapist at the end of the day)
    Janine ultimately (again whether rightly or wrongly) does what she can for herself and her daughter and her softer side is shown but doesn’t feel forced, unlike with Ben.
  • ss147ss147 Posts: 1,608
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    Gardena wrote: »
    Bertypop wrote: »
    Yet, Ben killed Heather, and has been able to continue as a prominent character. Stacey killed Archie, same result. Janine has a fairly high body count and yet, we love her.

    Ben is the one character who isn't ever allowed to move on from his bad deeds the way other are . Nobody is running around the square reminding Stacey and everyone else that she murdered someone . With Janine it's camp fun and he should habe worn slip on shoes . Bobby had his secondary victim Max becoming his cheerleader and an entire story arc about ghost Lucy . With Ben you get an endless list of all his misdeeds everytime the character is doing something, anything really .

    The thing with Ben, is that he does horrible things and just doesn’t care and then expects everyone to feel sorry for him
    When things mess up. Stacey has kind of owned up to it all and does try and be a good person (and her killing Archie, whether rightly or wrongly, was her killing her rapist at the end of the day)
    Janine ultimately (again whether rightly or wrongly) does what she can for herself and her daughter and her softer side is shown but doesn’t feel forced, unlike with Ben.
    Janine's not doing what she's for her daughter at all, it's all for herself.
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